Daily Kos

I Won't Support Hillary in the Primary Anymore.

Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:15:08 PM PDT

For about a year now I've been leaning towards Hillary as my "If the election were today, who would you vote for?" candidate. And lately I was feeling that Hillary was being attacked too much here. A little while ago I was at another diary defending Hillary as having the most liberal congressional voting record. Another comment pointed out that the National Journal has Hillary as not being most liberal (in 2006).

I'm not withdrawing my support because she is less liberal in the National Journal in 2006. I was looking for her voting record with other liberal organizations. I know she had a 95% rating with ADA (Americans for Democratic Action) in 2006.

But then I came across this "Hillary's Now against Licenses for Illegal Immigrants." If she had said it was for the states to decide and Spitzer backed down and she supports Spitzer's decision, I would understand.

But what a total sell-out to the immigrant community. She may win votes for her decision, but she's probably lost mine (in the primary).

A lot of the criticism I've seen here of Hillary was, I thought, by partisans of other candidates. I thought the STOP Hillary comments and diaries were over the edge, for a progressive site. I don't think I'm on the STOP Hillary bandwagon yet, but I'm beginning to understand how some people feel that way.

Just now I feel like jumping on the Obama bandwagon. I hope he doesn't back down from his support of drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants. If he does then I'll have to possibly reconsider again. I hope  they ask about licenses in the Democratic Debate tomorrow and Obama stays strong.

I'm still down on Edwards for his attacks of Hillary on the license issue and then him backing down. What's wrong with the Democrats?

Not only is drivers licenses for the undocumented a safety issue, it's an economic issue as well. When millions of workers can't get to work, that hurts the economy. They don't pay their mortgages, their rent, don't pay taxes, don't buy goods. They stop picking crops, cleaning businesses, preparing food and doing all the other jobs that immigrants (undocumented too) do.  When the economy goes down it hurts us all. And that doesn't even consider the criminalization and dehumanization of more than 5% of workers in America. And what is the long effect of the psychological trauma on the 5 million U.S. citizen children who have at least 1 undocumented parent. Isn't is enough to make you sick?

And don't think the anti immigrant hysteria doesn't hurt all immigrants and even U.S. citizens. Remember how 70 % of those affected by the Social Security no match letter would have been citizens.

U.S. District Court Judge Charles R. Breyer found that "the government’s proposal to disseminate no-match letters affecting more than eight million workers will, under the mandated time line, result in the termination of lawfully employed workers..." The judge also found that "if allowed to proceed, the mailing of no-match letters, accompanied by DHS’s guidance letter, would result in irreparable harm to innocent workers and employers."

"This is a significant step towards overturning this unlawful rule, which would give employers an even stronger way to keep workers from freely forming unions," said John Sweeney, President of the AFL-CIO. "More than 70% of SSA discrepancies refer to U.S. citizens."

Almost all economists agree that immigrants are beneficial to the growth of our economy. By continuing to hurt the immigrants, we are hurting ourselves. If we go into a recession, those that were so anti immigrant can blame themselves. And those that sat back and did nothing won't feel much better.

Hillary and Edwards should know better. They know that immigrants (undocumented included) are vital to our national interests. Support immigrant rights and ask your candidate to do the same.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, immigrants, migrants, undocumented immigrants, drivers licenses, economy, immigration, single issue voter (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 122 comments

    •  I'm an immigrant (11+ / 0-)

      The main issue for me is UHC.  It's my Alpha and Omega for 2008.  The candidate who goes to the mat for UHC should be nominated.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:21:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My mantra in 2004 (0+ / 0-)

        I'm a little more pragmatic (and confused?) this time around, but I hear ya.

        Ready to go, y'all. -4.48, -4.56

        by pseudopod on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:29:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What's UHC? Universal Health Care? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mariachi mama, oscarfrye

        Or Undecided Hillary Clinton? Oops. Just trying to be funny. I don't want to bash Hillary, really. Just criticize her a little, as she deserves.

      •  that's the problem (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        LordMike, auditor, mariachi mama, cpresley

        and it plays into the Rove playbook. That's why immigration reform was blocked and why the dem's tried to get 'anything' passed, with the hope of cleaning it up once we take back the presidency. These are the racists issues.  There are always a lot of people of both parties who can be sucked into some racist position.  Hillary had to take that back, had she not there is no way she could win the general. If Obama wins the primary he'll have to take it back too, and don't hate him for it.  This is the one they'll use to distract us all from the war, from the incompetence, the way the Republicans will show they're different from Bush and still keep us in Iraq and making knuckle-brained decisions that reduce our standing and make the whole world scarier. They want it to be about Islamo-facisism, one of their made up scary words, and not about wrecking the economy and killing people, ours and more, over seas and not here.  our people need to win, and they will have to be practical, and they need to be able to count on our votes, not have to win us too. Rudy should be enough to win us. Vote for who you think would make the best president in the primary and vote for the winner in the general.  There will be a big contest to see who can grab the xenophobic vote, and with any luck we can leave them alone on this so that it won't distract as much as the rovians want it to from the war, the economy, education. No one will ever send all the immigrants home, that would really wreck our economy, it will not happen. The worst is a stalemate, and it's very scary for the people involved, but these times are nasty.  

        Hillary - Alternative Energy

        by anna shane on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:36:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Idon't agree that Hillary had to take it back. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Dianna, anna shane

          She should have said that it was a state rights issue. The governors and states should decide. Period.

          •  you're not seeing it clearly (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            markw, Salo, cpresley

            over fifty percent of Americans have bought into that crap and want to drum all Mexicans out, because of people like Dobbs, it's a blame the brown people,  Obama's comment will be played and played in attack ads if he's our candidate.  I wish it weren't so, but this is the new tactic that can distract Americans, and can be the 'one issue' deal breaker. There are people who will suck up torture, but vote against brown people living a life without fear of intimidation, arrest, abuse.  It's wild, but, it's true. Keep an open mind, wait and see.  

            Hillary - Alternative Energy

            by anna shane on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:45:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  As I stated above, that theory was debunked Tues (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Dianna, anna shane

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Lou Dobbs didn't get anyone elected last week despite the fear-mongerers playing the immigration card heavily in state and local elections. 7 years of Republican corruption, incompetence, hypocrisy and fiscal irresponsibility, and there aren't many cards left for the GOP to play.

              So far, the "Fear of a Brown Planet card" isn't getting the attention of over "50 percent of Americans", it's only attracting the same fringe elements that we've always seen voting GOP. Fortunately, Moderates and Independents are too disgusted with everything else to bother with the latest Wedge Issue.

              The problem we have is that we haven't delivered the knock-out punch of strong leadership to finish Republicans off. But regardless, the Immigration issue isn't going to win them the White House.

              "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

              by blueintheface on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:30:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, but it will win some close races... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                anna shane

                ...We lost the 37th district in Virginia over this...

                I think that it is important to take a balanced middle ground, but to stand strong on it...  The repulbicans are already saying Spitzer cut and run....  Often times, what's worse than an unpopular policy is not having the guts to stand up for something unpolular!

                Like you, I don't think that standing up for immigration will kill us in the general election... we've seen what's happened so far... however, I am very nervous about it... this issue is morphing and growing every day... who knows where it will lead.  I can see why candidates are rolling back... and they should!  We don't need to pander anymore on this issue... it's clear where republicans stand, and that democrats don't endorse their views...  Let it lie there... The hispanic voters know where its at, and we shouldn't continue to antagonize the independents.

                What would be worse than continued immigrant pandering, though, would be rolling back to a Tancrenedo position... which is what Spitzer and Hillary are seemingly doing.... that's not a good idea, too... 'cos if you are going to try and get hispanic votes... you better get them 'cos you've already lost independents over this issue.

                There's a middle ground that is at least acceptable to both sides... find it and stick with it... don't flinch or reach... stay firm.

                Thanks,

                Mike

                The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

                by LordMike on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:09:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I saw Spitzer on television tonight. (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  markw, cpresley

                  He isn't backing down on his beliefs, he is pulling back his idea, because he said that everything has come to a standstill because of it and is paralysing govt. and getting things done.  Even though I don't agree with his ideas of giving licenses, I really felt that he was genuinely concerned that this issue was standing in the way of other concerns that need addressed in the state.

          •  That is pretty much what she was saying, when (5+ / 0-)

            she said that she didn't blame governors for looking at it as a safety issue in their states.  

            Her answer wasn't black and white, but I understand that America doesn't do anything other than black or white.  Suprisingly, a lot of people here don't either.

          •  Since it is a state issue, her lack of support is (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            hopscotch1997, cpresley, KnowVox

            meaningless, and therefore a non-issue. Why would that cause anyone to change their mind about her?? She is trying just a little too hard to win, but I damn sure hope she does.

            Dkos = democracy. The only problem is that both give voice to idiot and genius alike. Read an anti-Hillary diary lately?

            by JamesBrown4ever on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:18:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  well, who is it? who's the best on UHC? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Gabriele Droz, KnowVox

        The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

        by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:37:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  HillaryGuy (0+ / 0-)

          I noticed you recd my diary about Hillary's inconsistency on the driver's license issue.  Just wondering what your thinking was (you didn't comment on the thread so I got you here).  

          Incendiado para arriba, listo para irme.

          by gobacktotexas on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:23:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm an immigrant too Salo (11+ / 0-)

        and my most important issue is that Democrats unite against the Republicans, instead of against each other.

        It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

        by Gabriele Droz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:54:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  When did "I'll support the winner" become (6+ / 0-)

          a minority position?

          John McCain says he'd be happy to see our troops in Iraq for another hundred years. I just can't agree with that.

          by Barry in MIA on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:11:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry Barry, (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            markw, hopscotch1997, cpresley

            I don't get your point.  But then again, I've had several glasses of wine.  Care to elaborate?  I generally agree with most of what you say.

            Just dense, right now.  Sort of like licking wounds, and questioning Americans' ability to absorb reality = no chance.

            It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

            by Gabriele Droz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:21:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm thinking he was in agreement that a lot of (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Gabriele Droz, cpresley

              people here would rather unite against our own winner, than against a pug, and that those really willing to support our own winner no matter who they be are in the minority.

              •  Thanks. Kind of depressed tonight, (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                markw, Dianna, cpresley, immigradvocate

                to see how the last 7 years really have taken root amongst our own liberals.  Starting to compare it to the incremental shift of the German populace towards Hitler.

                I don't know if you know what I'm saying here.  It's not that Democrats EVER would want to vote for hitler.  Its just the subtle change of rules of conversation over the years, that makes some of us become perpetuators of the propaganda - on the other side, with the same rules.  It's just scary to me.

                It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                by Gabriele Droz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:34:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Just that all of a sudden, people disagree (or (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Gabriele Droz, cpresley

              fail to agree) when you end a debate with "but we'll all support the winner, right?".  Are these people not gonna rally round the winner?  I thought that was the purpose of primaries (and this site).
              (And I had a few, too, so maybe I wasnt so clear first time around!)

              John McCain says he'd be happy to see our troops in Iraq for another hundred years. I just can't agree with that.

              by Barry in MIA on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:37:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  How's about a mutual hug for our future? (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Dianna, cpresley, Barry in MIA

                Support for each other always adds a 00.09% percent of winning, along with the, you know, regular polls that say things are way better.

                It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                by Gabriele Droz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:46:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Man, am I ever naive. (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Dianna, cpresley, Barry in MIA

                  To expect some kind of coming along amidst us all, for a better good.  Shit, might as well follow my husband's heart-attack that put him out from the shit that's about to happen.  I want to join him --- except I have two prescious sons, whom I would NEVER abandon.

                  Oh the curse of the Republicans.  None of us did this.

                  More of us need to unite against them, instead of against each other.

                  It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                  by Gabriele Droz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:59:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Gabriele, (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    markw, cpresley

                    Hang in there.  You are having a few drinks and things are magnified.  This is not real life here on DailyKos.  Things look much brighter when you turn off the computer and look around.  Look at the polls, and at who is really ahead.  All those people out in the country are in the millions who are for Clinton.  They are for her regardless of the republicans working on them for the last 20 years.  That is actually amazing and shows the resilience of the human spirit and its fight against lies and the ability to prevail despite it.  

                    Everything on here is backass backwards from what is really happening and if you spend a lot of time here you get swallowed up and lose track of what is happening in the REAL world.

                    Stay happy.  Don't let them get you down.  

      •  sorry, Gore's officially out of the race (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        pHunbalanced, superscalar, Dianna

        Everyone else with a significant following favors forcing us to buy private health insurance plans as a "solution" to the national health care problems. Whether it's Hillary, Obama, Edwards, or Dodd, this is the essence of Hillarycare or generic hillarycare and this is why I am not voting for President in the CA primary.

        Gore was the only person with a chance to win the nomination that supports single-payer UHC.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:01:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Dennis isn't going to be nominated (0+ / 0-)

        Who would be your second choice?

      •  Maybe it's just late, but what's UHC stand for? (0+ / 0-)

        I'll probably feel very stupid for not knowing once you tell me.

        "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

        by leevank on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:26:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think (5+ / 0-)

    you'll be disappointed in Mr. Obama and his record.

    And...welcome.

    I know how difficult it is to make that decision.  I've had to switch candidates, too, but I think as this primary season continues, you'll find that you're not alone.

    You might want to check out OMS for more info.

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

    by nolalily on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:19:47 PM PDT

  •  No you haven't (6+ / 1-)

    Recommended by:
    ghost2, zed, hopscotch1997, Salo, Ky DEM, cpresley
    Hidden by:
    Smallbottle

    your previous diaries indicate that you lean Obama. Don't lie (or at least delete your diaries first.) Twit.

    •  lol (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:22:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Heh. (4+ / 0-)

      I am undecided as to who I'll vote for in the Primary, but after reading this interview, I'm more likely to vote for Obama than before.

      -immigradvocate, Sept 27th, 2007.

    •  Not true, I have never said that. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, markw, Dianna, Rex Manning

      But I have said that I like Obama, but was and am concerned about his lack of international experience, and about his being electable.

    •  From a previous diary... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      soros, Inland

      ...from the same diarist:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      I am undecided as to who I'll vote for in the Primary, but after reading this interview, I'm more likely to vote for Obama than before.

      Doesn't exactly sound like an Obama fanatic.

    •  Calling someone a liar and a twit is upratable? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dianna, immigradvocate

      How do zed, hopscotch1997, Salo, Ky DEM think that the poster writing one immigration diary praising Obama and saying that he/she is more likely to vote for Obama is leaning Obama?

      Then what were all these Hillary supporters rec'ing here?:

      Hillary has the most liberal voting record of any (7+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:ghost2, oysterface, campskunk, Pacifist, phoenixdreamz, KnowVox, jay w
      of the candidates running. To call her conservative is ridiculous.

      or here:

      think Hillary came across as being more (7+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:ghost2, markw, DCDemocrat, oysterface, Alegre, cpresley, phoenixdreamz
      supportive of the undocumented immigrants than Edwards. He seemed to say that he would support licenses only after they were on the path to citizenship. If that's not his position, I wish he'd clarify that.

      or here:

      That's right. She has the most liberal record (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:miriam
      of all the candidates running. I understand why the right wing goes after her. But I don't understand why she's attacked so much be the progressives here.

      or here:

      Hillary beats Giuliani in the south (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:trashablanca
      according to the most recent Pew Poll

      Clinton also leads Giuliani by sizable margin among voters in the South (56%-44%), which would represent a major shift from recent elections. In 2004, the South was Bush's strongest region by far; nearly six-in-ten voters in the South (58%) backed Bush, compared with 42% who supported Kerry.

      That's really amazing.

      The same person who has been supporting Clinton finds her views on something they obviously care deeply for a deal-breaker and the response is to attack the poster's credibility instead of the issue raised?

      Fucking disgraceful behavior for this board. That's something I would expect on Little Green Footballs.

      Congrats on dragging down the level of discourse into the gutter to protect your candidate. It's really going to convince people to back her.

      "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

      by blueintheface on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:49:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Your support (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hopscotch1997

    For all that, it comes down to this, you can't please everyone.

  •  They are not suppose to be in the country. (3+ / 0-)

    Much less driving.

    They are not suppose to be working, they are not suppose to be shopping, they are not suppose to be here.

    Undocumented, because they chose to ignore our immigration laws.

    I understand why, and I support them. If I was in the same shoes they where in I would probably do the same. But that does not change the fact that they are acting outside the laws of our country. Either laws count or they don't.

    The system needs to be changed, but that does not mean we should be enacting laws that cater to people who ignored our laws.

  •  I can't support anything that helps keep families (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mijita, LordMike, poblano

    living in fear and economic slavery. Nor do I think the first act of a good citizen is to break the law.

    We will never fix the stupidly small "legal" numbers allowed, so long as illegals stay. The "economic hit" could very well be exactly what would force a change in the current bad policy.

    The last "amnesty" is what created this mess.

    Has anyone considered what a benefit it would be to Mexico if all the illegals went home and used the skills learned here to fix the horrible cronyism keeping Mexican "democracy" a failure?  12 million or 20 million -- angry citizens could make a big difference in reforming that nation, could it not?

    They are being replaced by other central american natives crossing Mexican borders illegally to do the work which these folks are not there to do, according to news sources.  And being abused due to their illegal status. Illegal immigration just is NOT the answer.

    De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

    by Neon Mama on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:41:13 PM PDT

  •  Political calculations (0+ / 0-)

    have real effects on people. Thanks for this diary's clarifying this.

    I have no firm commitment to any candidate at this point, but it seems to me that for the last two weeks the Clinton campaign has begun to resemble the 2007 NY Mets. And I am a Mets fan (ouch).

    Answering a question 2 weeks after it was asked, once the coast was clear, will hurt your Earned Runs Average, so to speak.

    The meek are ready to probate.

    by ironpath on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:41:42 PM PDT

  •  flip flop- no guts..no glory (0+ / 0-)

    Once again all the dem candidates cave....wimps again. Why would it be so hard to say that in lew of any federal action, for the safety of everyone, a drivers license type registration is reasonable and necessary. That's it simple, done, over. And then stand by it. But no, here we are again flip flopping whichever the rethugs throw their weight the dems put their tails between their legs and follow along. It is no wonder that those people who leisurely vote feel like it is the lesser of 2 evils. One party takes us down the wrong road and the opposition party takes the same road cuz they are easily goated. It is no wonder that people are, shall i say "hesitant" about putting a dem in the white house? Even tho dickweed-in-chief is wrong about everything, he at least leads somewhere. The dems have no idea which way to go when challenged. No guts, no glory.

  •  That comment you gave the link to doesn't (5+ / 0-)

    fool me.  Talk about damning with faint praise.  You were never for her to begin with.  

    For the upteenth time, Hillary was never solidly for licenses for illegal immigrants.  She said she understood why Spitzer was supporting it.  She said that it was a safety issue for a governor.  She said that she wasn't for it, but could understand why he was.  

    Too bad you are projecting all of your hopes and dreams onto all the devils running for president.  They are never going to be able to be pure.

    Or are you?

    What this smacks of for me is a concern troll diary. "I love the democrats but 2 of them have disappointed me and a third is about to."  Oh me oh my, my wonderful democratic party.  I am so afraid for it.

    Bleh.

    •  "Solidly" (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Smallbottle

      She said she supported it:

      "Senator Clinton supports governors like Governor Spitzer who believe they need such a measure to deal with the crisis caused by this administration's failure to pass comprehensive immigration reform," her campaign said in a statement. "As president, her goal will be to pass comprehensive immigration reform that would make this unnecessary."

      It was barely ten fucking days ago, people.  Ten days!  How the fuck can Hillary supporters possibly tell us that she didn't say what we heard her say, what we heard her campaign say, not much more than ten days ago!

      Honestly, is this what we can expect in the general election, too?

      •  I am repeating what I heard her say at the debate (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        daria g

        What I heard her say is what I posted.  The diarist is whining about her not saying it is up to each state.  Well in fact I consider her saying that she understands why Spitzer, and governors were for it,to be the same as saying that she thinks governors and states should make the decision.  In fact she did not say she supported it accross the board, and rather than saying she was for the issue, she said that she supported the governors consideration of it for security reasons seems like leaving it up to the states to me.  

        Look.  I am not for it myself, but I also understand that you cannot explain a complicated issue in 30 seconds and explain to basicly a very basic thinking television audience your real concerns in that amount of time.  It is impossible to do.

        Deal with it.  If you don't take a more moderated approach to discussion, your blood pressure is sure to get you on the way to the general and then it won't matter anyway.  You are always so worked up.

        •  Oh, it's the "complicated" excuse. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          just passing through

          It's not complicated.  It's damn simple.  

          Yes, I support the policy, because I believe it's necessary to ensure highway safety

          OR

          No, I oppose the policy, because I don't believe that the state should provide identification to undocumented immigrants.

          See?  Easy.  Hillary couldn't manage either.

          And no, the reason she couldn't manage either isn't because the issue is "complicated."  Every issue is "complicated" and candidates, Clinton included, respond to them every day.  Health care, for example, is very complicated, yet they rarely have difficulty with those answers.

          No, the reason she couldn't manage either is because she was too damn cowardly to take a side, pro or con, yea or nay.  So she gave a terrible answer that was both and neither.

          Then she gave a better, if unpopular one, the next day.  And now we see that she couldn't even stick with that.

          It's not about "complicated" - it's about her failure as a candidate to take a stand and defend her position.

        •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

          fact she did not say she supported it accross the board, and rather than saying she was for the issue, she said that she supported the governors consideration of

          Campaign advisers, pressed to explain her view more clearly, said that she ultimately supports the driver's-license proposal.

          Deal with it.

      •  Why dont Hillary supporters (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Smallbottle

        Vet Hillary this way.

        Though I seem to disagree with the diarist about the solutions to illegal immigration, claiming the diarist is being dishonest shows desperation.

    •  If you look at my comments over the last 3 plus (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Drew, blueintheface

      months (since I've been a member), I've always said that I was leaning Hillary. I even defended Hillary after the debate (about the license issue), saying that it was understandable. But immigrant rights is important to me and I feel extremely disappointed in her.  
      And I'm not projecting my hopes and dream on one candidate. I just stopped supporting Hillary. Isn't it my right to switch who I'm leaning towards.
      You're the second person to make false claims concerning my previous comments (or leanings). Show me one comment that I was for another candidate or that I wasn't supporting Hillary.
      You can't. So don't make false accusations.

      •  I have been in at least half the Hillary related (0+ / 0-)

        diaries that I have seen.  There is a recognizable group of people who support Clinton in all of them, I never saw your name there that I can remember.

      •  Don't bother. (0+ / 0-)

        Attacking your level of support keeps Clinton supporters from having to deal with your point.

        Apparently if you have a problem with Hillary or her campaign, then there's something wrong with you. Or if you're not "with them, you're against them". Something like that....

        "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

        by blueintheface on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:16:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I dealt with his point in the above comment, and (0+ / 0-)

          in a couple more.  Now, do you have anything fo substance to say?

          •  Apparently you and JamesBrown think you run (0+ / 0-)

            the Hillary diaries on this board. But apparently you've missed a few:

            Here's a list of several where the poster was supporting Clinton.  

            If it's your mission to patrol this board for Hillary, you're both doing a terrible job. Insulting people for having a problem with her positions on the issues and being full of shit about who is a "true" supporter isn't doing Clinton any favors.

            But troll away, I'm not supporting her anyway, and supporters like you two just keep giving me more reasons why.

            "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

            by blueintheface on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:55:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is obvious by a search of YOUR COMMENTS (0+ / 0-)

              that you are a supporter of Obama's and a hater of Clinton's, obviously you are all upset over a perceived slight to your newest group member, and are in the defense attack mode yourself.   Try not to get yourself too worked up over it.

              •  Not to put too fine a point on it, brainiac (0+ / 0-)

                but we vote.

                We have friends who vote.

                Families who vote.

                We work in campaigns and other organizations .

                We have money. Sometimes, quite a lot of it.

                And every time you people post, you turn another one of us against her.

                Every time you post, you lose a vote for Hillary.

                Every time you post, you turn another  Hillary opponent into another Hillary enemy.

                So, keep it up.

                Keep parsing, keep dissembling, keep distracting, keep telling people who don't like her there's something wrong with them.

                By the time you're done, she'll be the only candidate in recent memory openly despised and actively opposed by her own party's base.

                Let's see how that turns out for you.

                Keep it up. I love it.

              •  Or it's obvious by reading this: (0+ / 0-)

                I'm not supporting her anyway,

                You really didn't have to work too hard to figure out my level of support for Clinton, but I hope you enjoyed your foray into psychoanalysis. While you are making assumptions of my motivations, you may want to look up defense mechanisms.

                It's too late for this conversation, but maybe you'll be able to have an honest debate in your next one.

                "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

                by blueintheface on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:32:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  It is obvious (0+ / 0-)

                That you prefer to attack people than to address facts.

        •  blue in the what?? (0+ / 0-)

          Dkos = democracy. The only problem is that both give voice to idiot and genius alike. Read an anti-Hillary diary lately?

          by JamesBrown4ever on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:28:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  don't see it that way (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      immigradvocate

      Hopscotch-

      I almost always agree with you, but I don't see this diary that way.  The diarist may never have been firmly in Hillary's camp, but he has posted sympathetic comments about her in the past.  I understand his viewpoint, though I disagree with it, as I have posted elsewhere in these comments.

  •  I hope Obama does not support this (2+ / 0-)

    Theres no way to win in November if you support drivers licenses for undocumented workers.
    Hillary knew it and Obama knows it to.
    Every country has a right to protect its boarders and lets not let the republicans have the argument.
    The correct answer is that Democrats support drivers licenses for undocumented workers as part of a comprehensive immigration legislation.
    In other words if the immigration bill does not pass, the undocumented workers don't get their status changed or drivers licenses.

    •  What they should say is that it's a state rights (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mijita, barath, JamesBrown4ever

      issue. Isn't it?

      •  It's up to Governors. (0+ / 0-)

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:58:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  States rights argument will only go so far (4+ / 0-)

          eventually the question would either be, "Do you believe they are right?" or people mostly see immigration as a national issue not a state issue.  I realize that licenses are implemented at the state level, but for the most part so is the death penalty and that didn't stop the first Bush from pounding Dukakis over the head with it in 1988.  It is an issue and one that people will talk about.  As such, all candidates will have to make some comment on it.

          When asked if they support this the answer should be "No.  While I understand the reasoning, it is a poor substitute for comprehensive immigration reform that will help streamline the process for immigrants who want to be citizens and help protect the borders at the same time".

          As for the issue, I understand that the undocumented workers in the US are not the economic drain people think they are.  They do pay taxes (sales, gas, property, even income and SS much of the time) and are critical to the economy.  However, it was tough enough to convince many to go sign up for amnesty way back when, how many are actually going to trust the DMV with getting a drivers license?  I wouldn't think much.  As a safety issue, it is really hard to believe that it would have that much of an impact.  Do people currently drive without licenses?  Would getting one make them that much better of a driver...minimally at best?  This is a hot button issue in which the politics greatly outweigh the policy impact and the policy impact is better addressed in other ways.  

          This issue is a huge loser for the Democrats and we really need to back away from it or Giuliani and his group of neo-cons will be picking what other country to invade and what other part of the Bill or Rights need to be repealed.

      •  States may elect to extend the (0+ / 0-)

        privilege of driving to whomever they please and issue a license to signify that.

        Other entities may also chose to decide the presentation of a license is nothing more than the state's permission to drive.

    •  There are tons more issues than granting (0+ / 0-)

      driver's licenses to illegal aliens. When we get to
      nearer the election, the ECONOMY, for example, could sweep everything off the table. In the recent Virginia election, for example, immigration was not the issue that Republicans wanted it to be. Most of the upset about illegal immigration is driven by narrow-minded Republicans. And don't forget, the Latino vote will tilt toward the Dems and could sway the election in itself.

    •  It's about time that the dems realize... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that pro open borders issues is a big loser...

      Yes, it's nice to pander to hispanic groups and get their votes, but if you lose more independent votes in the process, it's not going to help you... at least in the short term.

      Democrats shouldn't back down and get all Tom Tecrenedo... and they need to be careful of retreating too far (I'm starting to see the signs of that).... but, at the same time, they shouldn't be continuously pushing this issue...

      Let it rest.  The republicans can continue to beat up on this... it won't help them... not unless we fuel their fire.

      This is a republican issue, not a democratic one... let them go nuts over it...  We don't have to jump every time they squak...

      Thanks,

      Mike

      The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

      by LordMike on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:52:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So? what else is new? (3+ / 0-)

    Is this a real diary, or just an ego thing about you?

    It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

    by Gabriele Droz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:52:51 PM PDT

  •  I'm not voting for her, but she is the first Dem (6+ / 0-)

    to realize that immigration is the Gay Marriage, Crime, i.e. cultural issue that the GOP is going to use in 2008 to divide and conquer. She sees the writing on the wall.

    •  The republicans started building on this (4+ / 0-)

      theme for the 2006 elections, and they have continued building ever since.  I had a push poll pretty much asking very leading questions not long before the campaign started in 2006 about immigration.  It smelled of republicans, and I knew the issue was about to break.

    •  That theory was debunked in the election last Tue (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Drew, Wufacta, Dianna, immigradvocate

      "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

      by blueintheface on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:23:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, but it is still scary... (0+ / 0-)

        ...it's like a giant fungus growing out of control...

        It is important that the Democrats take a good middle position and do not waffle...  They've reached very far to pander to hispanic voters, and that's good... but they've antagonized everyone else in the process....

        It's very clear where republicans stand... if any hispanic voter doesn't see that already, then nothing will change them...

        There is no point in antagonizing the independents....

        Let it lie where it is... find the middle ground and stick with it... do not reach... do not waver... do not waffle... and whatever you do, don't be so scared as to go into Tancrenedo ground....  (which, I fear, may be happening)... if you give into the republicans, you'll lose both hispanics and independents and the election...  stay focused and on message... don't give the Republicans any ground, but don't fuel their machine, either...  

        This is a republican issue, not a democratic one... leave it that way...

        Thanks,

        Mike

        The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

        by LordMike on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:15:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  not so sure (0+ / 0-)

        Tuesday's election was not large-scale enough to really prove this.  I trust the Clinton campaign on this one.  Whether you like her or not, you have to agree she has a top-notch polling operation.  I think this issue could be a serious threat to Democratic victory in 2008 in a national election.

  •  Yeah - One Down - WAY TOO MANY to Go (0+ / 0-)

    You've seen the light grasshopper.

    ObamaNation 2009!..... Rebecca > www.Kaplan4Oakland.org (4 coveted City-At-Large Council Seat)..... Gavin Newsom Governor California 2010......

    by AustinSF on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:22:31 PM PDT

  •  I don't support Hillary either but (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    just passing through

    won't you consider voicing concerns about problems other than immigration?  I mean I guess it doesn't matter to me.. do what you want. but when people hear incessant complaining about "immigration" from people who seem disinterested in every other issue being debated in American politics the immigration movement as a whole suffers.  It makes it look like you only care about your own clan, not the country you should be fighting to be part of.

    The sun is setting on Saxby Chambliss. It's Knight-time!! - Rand Knight, Georgia's U.S. Senate candidate

    by pkbarbiedoll on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:26:58 PM PDT

    •  But there are 12 million undocumented and their (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      markw, Dianna, mariachi mama

      families that need to be defended and they need support. If they don't get support nothing will ever happen that is good for them. And the immigration issue is not just about immigration. It's about the economy, about justice and humanity for a lot of good hard workers who are here and need our help. The immigration laws are broken and they need to be fixed.
      If the progressive community can't see that, then who will?

      •  They need human respect... (3+ / 0-)

        ...after all, they are here because they were starving in Mexico, and their government did squat to help them.

        However, they never were supposed to be here in the first place.  And that's the crux of the issue...  We've let in millions of people without any record of who they are or what they are doing.... they are living underground, in the shadows of society...

        Yes, they shouldn't be living this way... but, again, they were never supposed to be here in the first place.

        No matter what we say, we are never going to get over that point... that illegal aliens were never supposed to be here...

        They aren't...  and that's why excessive pandering to hispanics on this issue is not wise...  A middle road is better.... until the economy improves, and the scapegoating will be lessened.

        Thanks,

        Mike

        The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

        by L